Remove allowing Cub Pornography on the website.

Reposting reactions from friends that I posted in an earlier thread on this subject:

"Most people don't go to an art gallery site, turn on mature art, and expect kids."

"Unless something changes I'm not visiting that site again."

"The artists I’ve followed [on FN] I follow on FA, where they don’t allow that content. But there’s a non-zero chance someone I follow DOES draw it and could theoretically start posting it because FN allows it. And while I can block the tags I THINK someone who draws cub porn would use, I can’t be sure I got them all, and I don’t want to just block “cub” because kid-furry art can be pretty cute, and hell, I’ve used that to tag kid pics I’ve drawn. But there’s an element of the fandom that sees ANYTHING under the “cub” tag as automatically porn. I don’t want to get dragged into this shit because I also draw kids, and there’s too much stuff in my gallery to easily find and unlist/remove things."

"I’ve already had one client ask me not to post any work I do for him to [FN] because you allow cub porn, and a second asking me to delist work I’ve done for them so their art won’t be associated with it. You’re hurting my business. I had high hopes for your site and I hope you can rectify this before it drives more people away."

I'd be all for disallowing cub porn for the reasons mentioned in the OP. There's a site that allows it, and it's kinda become the site for that, anyway.

Agreed 100% ! Getting rid of the cub porn will make FN a much better place, in my opinion.

Censorship of art has never improved the quality of art. While allowing artists freedom of expression has resulted in masterpieces.

I know this comment will get downvoted, but if you're going to say they should ban one illegal thing, because of it being illegal elsewhere.

Then I immediately go to say you might as well add Bestiality, Gore, Homosexual, Transgender etc. Stuff from here and other places as well, since those are illegal and can get people in serious trouble in other countries as well.

Say what you will but is this a case of:

If you remove one thing, might as well remove everything.

Now, if it was illegal precisely where FN were being run from. THEN I would say yes, remove it. Otherwise, no, you keep it up. Chances of you finding it are slim if you aren't actively looking for it and have it blacklisted. Plus people can add tags of their own if something is lagging the tag.

Just blacklist it I've looked on the fresh art page for 10 minutes haven't even seen one but i've seen a lot of other porn. So you guys must have seen like only one and freaked out or your searching for it.

Exactly my point as well, but people only want things removed that THEY dont like.

Have you ever thought of the MORAL aspect of it? Guessing not. Are you really going to compare CHILD PORN with gay porn?? heck, just gay things in general??

Also, beastiality isn't something you should want??? It's also morally wrong and downright animal abuse.

It's actually art that involves smaller furs not really child porn what if the characters are just small adults or they got shrinked you cant possibly know that?

Body types are super easy to distinguish! If a character is 'shrunken' or there is size difference, there is a huge difference between 'child' and 'adult'!

That actually depends.

The art style can make an adult look more young than they would be, also some young real life kids have the looks and bodies of adults. Hell even adult can look like kids.

Because in many jurisdictions (where Furry Network is likely to be used), even artwork of it is illegal.

Homosexuality is considered MORALLY wrong by some people and cultures around the world, so is Bestiality, along with Transgender people.

The only reason ANYTHING should be removed, would be due to it being illegal where FN is located at. Not because some people view it as wrong.

Then nearly 100% of everything you can image should be removed.

Homosexual art is not illegal in any places where Furry Network (or most furry sites) is likely to be widely used. The same is not true of cub porn. The comparison is extremely weak and just sounds like grandstanding.

How do you know?

The comparison isn't weak.

The excuse people are using is it being illegal in places or morally wrong in others. Well so is a lot of other things around the world, remove those from FN as well if you want to remove one thing unless it is illegal precisely where its hosted.

Not at all. The entire point of this thread is to make suggestions to make this site better, and this site will be better for most of its users if cub porn is not allowed.

Gay art is illegal in some places, but none of those places are places where Furry Network is likely to be used much. Cub porn, on the other hand, is illegal in MANY places, INCLUDING places where Furry Network would be used a lot.

Now if you want to make this site less viable for people just because you can't go to IB for your cub porn, fine - downvote the suggestion. But the comparison remains weak.

Homosexual art would be banned if certain individuals were to get their way. Censorship in art should never be treated as lightly as you are treating it.

Ok I dont like it but im not looking for it with tags and it dosnt even show up on my fresh art page so why is everyone complaining?

Because it's currently allowed. There isn't much of yet, but we'd like it to be cut off now before the site gains more traction. There was a lot of it on FA before it was finally banned.

Not to mention, banning it may allow the site to gain more traction, since I've seen a number of people who don't want to use the site because it allows cub porn.

I'm all for not allowing it but im just saying people are overreacting saying its everywhere and everytime they open FN they see it. It should be gone but you shouldn't even see it if your not looking for it since there is so little of it.

This entire thread is about getting users' opinions on it. It's not even about "reacting" at all. The entire point of this thread is suggestions to improve the site.

Because people don't want it to GET to that point. This isn't about what's there - it's about what's allowed.

Homosexuality is a sexuality. Pedophilia is not. To compare the two is really grasping at straws. Cub porn is basically child porn, and to see people defending it by using "oh well it's just another fetish" makes me extremely uncomfortable to use this site for my artwork.

Seeing people attack it by saying 'Its morally wrong and illegal in countries!' makes me extremely uncomfortable because homosexuality is the very same.

It's been repeatedly pointed out to you how it is not the same at all, and you just keep putting your fingers in your ears. So really, no one here is taking you seriously except for the few who already agree with you.

The concept is the very same, this is illegal/immoral and should therefor be removed, will so is this and should be removed therefor as well.

Don't like it? To bad.

It is exactly the same.

I'm equally uncomfortable seeing how many people defend CP. Same goes for when I see people defending beastiality so strongly. There's fetishes, and then there's those things that are just outright wrong, no matter what you might say to defend it.

Because of tag blocking and the mandatory tagging policy, you can prevent such images from showing on your system. That by itself removes the legs of your argument.

There are good reasons to allow cub art. For one thing, it's not illegal. For another, it's artwork. By censoring certain kinds of artwork you open the door to a bunch of angry debates about what is porn and what is art.

By saying "There are other sites which allow it" is horse shit, because you're basically saying this site belongs to you personally and if people don't like it they should go somewhere else. But this site doesn't belong to you. If you don't like it, YOU should go somewhere else. There are several furry art gallery websites which have prohibited cub artwork. Use those.

There are very legitimate reasons for allowing cub pornography which have nothing to do with child pornography or child abuse or NAMBLA or any of that stuff. I'd go into specifics but I don't think you really care, I think you have a fascist agenda and you are going to promote it no matter what I say.

History shows us that Art has often challenged concepts of obscenity and decency. People who love art should appreciate that censorship has never done anything good for art, and allowing artists to push the limits has resulted in fantastic masterpieces.

I'm gonna nitpick - " People who love art should appreciate that censorship has never done anything good for art, and allowing artists to push the limits has resulted in fantastic masterpieces."

I highly, HIGHLY doubt that a piece of cub porn is ever going to be regarded as a 'fantastic masterpiece'. Just sayin'.

It's like you're trying to compare a work by a famous painter/artist to a furry porn one. That's a faaaaaaaarrrrrrrr reach. In order to love art you have to like cub porn? Is that what you're saying? You're really really trying hard here. I'm 100% sure that no masterpiece is going to come from it.

There's a piece an artist made that was just a vuvla. THAT is regarded as a piece to understand art censorship, not the cub porn you're so despretly trying to defend.

If you're at all familiar with art history and how various works of art have been banned for being 'obscene' you would understand where I'm coming from without me needing to explain it to you.

Read the wiki page on Michaelangelo's David, which is considered a masterpiece, if you need a history lesson.

I know the piece and I have yet to understand why you're using it to compare to cub porn "censorship"

I completely love how well articulated your post is! I'd MUCH RATHER have the potential to allow MORE PEOPLE here and not restrict some users based on some other people's need for cub porn. There are other outlets for it that have become a taboo place a lot of folks don't want to visit or be seen around. I was HOPING for a place where more furries would be willing to hang out and have a community here, not a place that potentially pushes others away due to legal issues in their countries or their own moral obligations.

Please, I beg you, if you upvoted this matter, arse yourself to upvote other pressing matters too in the support forum.

This as well is a very good point. If you are here for this support request, please check out the others as well so we can also improve FN in many ways! Not just one we are all passionate about!

Could you please make a few other ones to help ban Rape, Gore, Snuff, Bestiality, Homosexiality and Trandgender?

All furry art is bestiality to some people.

It's a very difficult topic. A fetish is not something you actively choose to have and sooner or later you have to deal with it somehow. Therefore I'm glad there is drawn porn for every fetish, especially for rape and so on, because nobody gets hurt by that. Personally I deeply hate both of it though, but that's just an opinion, just like my disgust for scat. (And in my opinion someone's personal antipathies should never be the reason for a rule as strict as a ban, otherwise a gallery doing so would be empty because everything is being hated by someone, even butterflies.)

What matters more is the question which fetishes, even in art, are illegal in the country FN is located and as far as I read it here, this seems to be the case for cub porn (and rape porn?) in the USA. Sure, FN could surround itself with lawyers then they are actually sued, but before those lawyers even could say a word, FNs reputation will be destroyed already - and probably the fandom's reputation as well.

(Boy, even in Germany where you can get away with a lot when you declare it as art, we would be ripped to pieces in the public because of the very small line between cub porn artwork and child porn/child rape.)

So even if I'm not totally against the existence of porn of the categories I dislike, I don't think this is the right place to share cub porn or rape porn (and neither are Weasyl, FA, IB or any other furry gallery.) It's illegal and it could hurt the fandom as a whole pretty badly within a few minutes. So, draw it, share it, masturbate to it, but please do it somewhere else, in a more smaller, more specific community where you have the space to talk about your likings.

Good thing you mentioned Rape.

I move to have that removed because its morally wrong and illegal in almost every country, including where FN and FA is located at.

Its nice to see people wanna ban Cub Porn, because its illegal and morally wrong. But not Rape, goes to show what hypocrites everyone against Cub Porn are.

Because if you dislike cubporn you automatically enjoy rape porn?

No, on the grounds that since Cub Porn is illegal and immoral, it should be removed from FN. Rape should be removed from FN as well.

"If ____ is true, ____ must be as well!"

Logical fallacy =<

This isn't about logic. These arguments have been settled in the art world for a long time. Censoring art is always wrong.

fallacy fallacy

When pressed, we see how the censorship squad begins heading down the so-called slippery slope. Pretty soon everything is banned except the things they want to look at.

This is why there is a mandatory tag rule and a tag blocking system. Use them and stop telling other people how to live their lives.

How about we ban rape, vore, gore, snuff, nc, cub and everything else that's illegal.

If you don't like what this site offers, just stay on FA.

The legal aspect is extremely tenuous at best. To date- and believe me, I have looked- there is no legal precedence of prosecuting this particular charge. In every single historical account thereof, the person who supposedly went to jail for this was either actually imprisoned for a separate charge, shown to have actual real CP, or was bamboozled by a Prosecution that was not required to even show the evidence to the Judge. No prosecutor wants to try to put someone away for drawing cartoons, because that puts them into incredibly gray area where essentially they have to prove that you can indeed be jailed just for drawing something.

That's. HARD.

Now let's look at the other end of this, the populist aspect: At one point, there was a group of people who wanted all porn taken away, because they decided that gave the Furry Fandom™ a bad name. Of course, you probably don't even know who they are, because of course they got laughed all the way out of town. They inspired a toxic second and third generation of self-haters, but the bottom line here is that we are all entrenched in an exercise of social exclusion by our mere presence; if you want to insist that some of us are categorically not fit to share space with you, then you're gonna have to come up with something better than "I don't like it." Because nobody likes everything. We have to learn to get along anyway.

There was a case in Australia. Man was ordered off the plane due to carrying 'graphical depictions of underaged pornography'

Show me the deets.

People are quick to upvote anything supporting anyone against Cub Porn.

But its the opposite for anything else despite that being things considered illegal or immorally wrong. Including things like murder, snuff, gore, vore and rape.

the world doesnt consist of just the 'USA' fyi

http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/anime-fan-convicted-over-illegal-7958896

"He admitted"
Bingo. They muscled him, said they'd put him away forever, he plead guilty. You don't get a fair trial if you plead gulty; you get whatever the Prosecution wants to do to you.

Honestly, people should just use the blacklist in my opinion. I mean, murder is illegal but we allow gore art and things such as incest, voyeurism, rape, theft, "feral" and drugs in artwork constantly.

I would like FN to be available to the largest number of users possible.

Because in *some* countries it is illegal content, I believe it should be disallowed.

Those who like the content wouldn't be excluded from the site, they would just have to take that *specific* content elsewhere.

I'm going to make the same argument that I did on Twitter, only better developed. Let's ignore the whole "but you're censoring art" argument, because there are a ton of very good reasons we censor art on a regular basis. You can look towards the widespread banning of "A Serbian Film" or the fact that a lot of neo-Nazi propaganda and other media (which one could classify as 'art') is largely censored by Germany as examples.

In the case of cub art I think very few people actually realize the benefits to allowing it to be created. Outlandish, I know, but it's an interested argument I've heard a few times now. First we have to acknowledge that Pedophilia exists and that we cannot eradicate it. That doesn't make it less morally reprehensible, nor does that diminish the extraordinary harm that it inflicts upon people. But, allowing it's artistic expression actually serves as an outlet that generates a lot less harm. The same goes for non-consensual art, of which CP is a subset because children cannot consent (which, as a victim of sexual assault personally disgusts me). I lack the specific vocabulary to identify what goes on, but it's essentially a cathartic release of otherwise disgusting or socially unacceptable feelings and desires. In effect it allows pedophiles to express their attractions without having to inflict harm upon a child in real life.

You can find this same theory all over in clinical psychology, whereby distressed, deviant, or violent individuals are encouraged to produce art as a means to release their emotions (desire included) in a way that is much more healthy and much less damaging. In doing so, they are drastically less likely to act upon these urges in real life, where there are real victims and real lives at stake. The Economist (I think) actually ran an article back in September that talks about how therapists and psychologists in the United Kingdom have been setting up anonymous clinics inviting pedophiles to receive free treatment regarding their unacceptable desires.

Before anyone says it, this argument only extends to the production of art where no children are physically involved. This means that photography, video, or anything that is a 'replica' or 'memorial' of an event that happened in real life should be promptly reported to the police, removed from FN, and is otherwise wholly unacceptable.

Phrasing! "The same goes for non-consensual art, of which CP is a subset because children cannot consent (which, as a victim of sexual assault personally disgusts me)" should read as non-con art in general disgusts me and actually sometimes makes me want to puke.

"The Economist (I think) actually ran an article back in September that talks about how therapists and psychologists in the United Kingdom have been setting up anonymous clinics inviting pedophiles to receive free treatment regarding their unacceptable desires."

Wouldn't that best be done in a clinical setting, then? Having cub porn on the same site that accepts regular adult artwork would seem to put it on about the same level as the rest of the spank material. I would assume part of reinforcing that they are "unacceptable desires" would mean having to go to some very specific places to get relief from them.

I'm honestly asking; I'm not in psychology at all and I really couldn't tell you what would actually benefit people struggling with pedophilic urges. I'm just not convinced that a furry art website is a good place to do that, when it could harm the site overall.

Replying to Ruggy:

I agree that, ideally, we would have 100% of pedophiles attending these programs that would, ideally, have a 100% success rate in transforming their patients pedophile tendencies into something much more healthy. But that's in a perfect world, and in a perfect world Pedophilia wouldn't exist in the first place.

The fact of the matter is that we can't institutionalize people (and neither should we) so instead we have to make due with the best tools we have, and I feel allowing people to access cub porn is at least minimizing the damage that could be done by pedophilia.

I disagree about censoring art, there is never a good reason to censor art.

I agree with some of your points about cub artwork, but there are other reasons you're missing. We're creating characters in this community, those characters have lives before the age of 18. I dunno about you, but my sexual life began at 14, or even earlier if you count masturbation. And there's nothing disgusting about that.

Pedophilia is disgusting. But we're not discussing pedophilia, we're discussing a broad ban of artwork that fits someone's definition of obscene. Allowing such censorship has never in the history of intelligent life resulted in anything positive, ever.

If people speak out against the allowing of cub porn and they don't remove it. a huge majority will leave this site and it will die off. We don't need this site to allow this. It will ruin the fandom more.

Alright. This is a long one, but it will explain why we should limit how many places this kind of art work should be available, so buckle up.

First off, To the people compairing it to homosexuality and art of other crimes: There is a difference. Our argument isn't simply "ban it because its illegal in my country"

Our argument is "sexual offenders have been known to use sexually explicit images of children to convince other children that whats being done to them is ok" this is our issue. As a survivor of sexual abuse, I can tell you that cub porn is going to be even MORE effective at doing this because children enjoy seeing animals. And seeing young animals doing something makes children think it's ok, and it's not. This is an issue that can seriously hurt children, not only physically and emotionally, but also psychologically. Children aren't developed enough to understand what consenting to sex means. This is the cycle of abuse. Those children grow up and say "it happened to me and I was fine" and then they let it happen again and again. Not all victims survive, not all of us came out unscathed. We often deal with painful and lasting emotions and memories and psychological trauma that contributes to arise developmental disorders and a wide array of other mental illnesses that affect us our entire lives. I don't care if you personally like cub porn, I don't care if you draw cub porn, you do you. But just know that not everyone who enjoys it will be as innocent as you. So keep it to yourself or share it only with people you know won't be contributing to the cycle of abuse somewhere its already accepted. (IB) Banning uploads of this particular kind of pornography helps stop this cycle from spreading and can make the world a safer place for future generations.

Going back to the people grandstanding: Saying that we might as well ban anything that's illegal in any country, that's just an entirely wrong augment to make because not everything illegal is wrong, and not everything wrong is illegal. Yeah, being gay is illegal in some counties. That doesn't make it wrong. Abusing Children is legal in some counties, that doesn't make it right. If you are comparing these two things, or any two things like this really, then you are entirely missing the point and you might want to reevaluate the situation.

Easier access to pornography of minors allows abusers more opportunities to solicit children. Easier access to pictures of drugs and other illegal activities does NOT give you more oppourtunities to do them. You might argue that Adults in Rape pictures and other crimes may be another bannable offense, but rapists who target adults do not use these images to solicit their targets. So the images don't contribute to the cycle of abuse in a meaningful way, in fact many are produced by survivors themselves to help express the complicated feelings that come with being a survivor.

TLDR- keep fictional kids out of pornography to help keep real kids out of pornography.

In the same essence, all furry artists are to blame, because they draw adorable mascot creatures banging each other. It's no different from any rule34 that has an underage audience and no different from any porn ever that's drawn in a cartoony style.

But nope, let's not complain about those, we like those.

Showing adults doing something is entirely different than showing children doing something. Children often see adults doing things like smoking and drinking and swearing all the time. Children often know the difference between things adults do and things children do and they draw a very strong distinction between these. They can still tell the difference between adults and children even in cartoons and animals. A child can tell that franklin is a child and his parents are adults. This argument isn't about cartoons and furries making children think something is ok, its about children seeing other children in dangerous situations in addition to being told by their abusers that it's ok because other children are doing it.

Most children worldwide are taught that adults can do things that children can't, and children are conditioned to assume that they can't do something until they see a child do it. That's why showing adults doing something and showing children doing something is an important distinction to make.

(Your reply also mentions minors getting access to adult images, which again isn't the point we are making here. But even if cub porn was allowed, it would still be behind an age lock. A child who lies about their age and gets around that restriction isnt something the site can really do anything about. Thats an entirely unrelated situation. While we are on the subject of being off subject, I am inclined to mention that images of incest between adults, gore/guro, bestiality, and snuff do not have a significant effect on the cycle of abuse. So they aren't covered by this situational argument; these are what blacklist tags are for.)

This is far, far more articulated than my earlier post. Thank you.

Does anyone really go to every single furry art website every day? I know artists post their works to several, personally I only visit one daily (FurAffinity). Recently that's changed to two as I've been more interested in this site. When all of the artists I follow are established on here I will stop loading FA every day.

I never visit inkbunny even tho I like some cub artwork, specifically because it's a pain to spend time on multiple social sites every day, and because that site lacks the sort of robust filtering tools that this site has.

Those filtering tools make this a non-issue. What you're really doing is dictating how other people should live their lives. Those filtering tools are probably the #1 best feature about this website, because personally I am sick of seeing diaper artwork on FurAffinity.

This is all a bunch of holier than thou nonsense in support of censoring artwork which is automatically evil so I question all of your real motives and I think you should take a long hard look at yourselves and ask "how does someone else's enjoyment of a particular piece of art hurt me personally". The answer is it doesn't, and you should stop shoving your nose in other people's business.

There really is nothing more to this argument. It's incredible that so many people think themselves god.

Ok well as an abuse survivor you must be lobbying for the removal of rape, gore, snuff and other such art as well?

Yes bad people use images like that for bad things but if we got rid of everything you can do bad things with we would live in a vacume. You need to get rid of all kids toys that are vaguely phallic or that vibrate or jiggle in any way, we must eliminate all candy from the earth because pedophiles use that to lure children we must eliminate all dolls especially ones like barbie and definitely the life sized ones. We must require government surveillance of every home with a child and every public rest room, (because that all happens behind closed doors in private).

I feel for your trauma, my wife was abused when she was little but artwork is not to blame.

First of all, I want to say that I'm sorry that you were abused. Nobody should have to go through that.

Secondly, the idea of someone using my art to do that to a child is repugnant to me, and I would do anything I could to stop them from abusing that child... but if I stopped producing this work tomorrow, all that would do is give people who don't abuse children absolutely no outlet for this aspect of themselves that they did not ask to have. What's more, suppressing sexuality has a long history of creating people who are unsympathetic to the object of their desires, thus making them more likely to abuse.

Going by what those who've studied this have said, a lot of abusers wished they'd felt they could have ever spoken to anyone about the feelings they had rather than bottle them up inside. That doesn't excuse what they did, but it kind of gives one the idea that maybe putting up more blocks and walls isn't quite the answer that's going to save children.

If anything, I really expect that the only thing that will help children is to keep lines of communication strong- between kids and their guardians so they know what's up, and between adults/teenagers so they can talk about these urges without feeling isolated.

*applause*

This is a point that is not always touched on and hardly ever brought up so thoroughly and I really think that people should pay attention here.

I hold no ill will towards people with the fetish, that draw the fetish or support it. Heck I have talked to abuse survivors that say that they use fictional work of underage characters helps them cope. However, the cycle is there.

Material that contains the sexualization of minors, normalizes the sexualization of minors when distributed.

I agree with Tartii on this issue.

Please don't take this into consideration Varka.

If you have to, just add a feature where you have to mark things as Rape, Cub Porn, Gore etc. And give people warnings before banning them if they fail to do so.

FN should't have to stoop low and give in to the demand of people because of their opinions or moral compass which varies all over the globe.

They should only do it when it comes to the actual laws in the specific area the site in located.

That already exists.. I dunno the URL but it is in the rules somewhere that appropriate tags must be used, this way they ensure that the tag blocking feature works well.

You mean Weasyl?

That's the only site I can think of which have a similar tagging system to FN.

Then again Weasyl did come before FN.

A tagging system is already in place they just don't want to put in the woirk required to enforce it.

if you're going to ban cub at least ban rape. if peoples fantasies aren't allowed you might as well really crack down lmao

I mentioned Rape, gore, blood, snuff ext... in my own comment. It's rediculous. These guys are too lazy to enforce proper tagging.

> If things spin out of control

Unfortunately, I think we're already reaching this point. SimbaLion has started systematically downvoting/fighting almost every poster in the thread, derailing the initial conversations. Including comparing his opponents to fascists.

Also, the thread has started rapidly gaining downvotes. Startlingly fast. If you have access to it, I'd ask that you double-check to see it isn't being robo-downvoted or spammed or something like that.

Thanks for being crazy-active on the PR side of this whole thing. Much respect.

Something I have always hated about FA’s policy is that it is super vague regarding their cub content. So if this does happen, I think it is going to be very important to be clear and precise about just what is and isn’t considered “cub porn”.

Some areas that need to be covered, because people will either upload something by mistake or intentionally try to break the rules. So these need to be addressed when making the AUP.

1. Characters fully clothed being eaten in vore pictures.
2. Characters that are “thousands” of years old, but look cub age.
3. Cropped pictures of adult cub works with links to where uncropped versions are posted on other sites.
4. Censored cub pictures.
5. Will you be using the age of 18 as your base or 21 like it is in some other counties?

But I think the biggest area of all, is defining just what “cub porn” is. For example, I’ve written stories that hint at teenagers having sex off screen, would that be something I wouldn’t be allowed to post anymore? Am I allowed to write about a 17-year-old and an 18-year-old making out, with no sex whatsoever? Or would that get me banned? Are we going to follow prime time TV rules or HBO TV rules?

In my opinion, I think FN has great potential as a great website for furry art. However, I greatly dislike the idea of cub porn being present on the site. Not only do my own morals consider this wrong, I am concerned regarding the legalities of this content. FN could potentially come under legal repercussions since, while cub porn only contains fictional characters, its attributes are very similar to pedophilia. And we already know that pedophilia is illegal in most states and nations. Therefore, I strongly urge FN to reconsider their policies regarding this type of content. I want to use FN as an additional furry site, but I do not want to be associated with a site that allows potentially illegal content.

I'd rather them band Non-consensual art first if anything. With that said, I'm of the opinion that the we shouldn't be doing any blanket censoring.

Nothing wrong with cub it's fictional artwork. What should be the stance on gore, rape, blood, hypnosis, snuff ect... All pretty bad things and much of that stuf is illegal in many places.

I don't see the issue in being extra strict on proper tagging for art and taking appropriate action for those who don't tag properly, then no one has to see it who doesn't like it. The lazy way out is to ban it all together.

No one needs to compete with FA, FA is sinking and before long won't even be relevent anymore.

I think there are a lot of people who are #outraged around here, and I find it a little silly.

Ultimately, for the sake of the site, the decision on whether or not cub material should be allowed should come down to 'what will get FurryNetwork more users'.

Is the number of users you gain from saying 'Cub is banned on FN, you won't find it here' / number you Don't lose because you prohibit it greater than the number of artists who create that content, and their fans you would lose if you banned it?

If there's significantly more people who will continue to use/ join the site if there's no cub allowed, then ban it.

If there's a gigantic community of people looking for that content that outnumbers the people seeking to ban it, then the cub should stay.

As an artist who creates a lot of work depicting humans and nonhumans fucking, personally I don't know how I'd feel if suddenly the artwork that i created was prohibited, and i was no longer welcome here.

"If there's significantly more people who will continue to use/ join the site if there's no cub allowed, then ban it."

If my twitter feed is anything to go by, this is absolutely the case.

Yeah, i've been following the twitter, too. Also this thread has way more ++'s than -, which would tell me the majority feels it's morally reprehensible / legally dubious.

6 years ago this sort of content was allowed on FA and had its own submission category. It wasn't dropped because people were outraged, it was dropped because Alert Pay (fa's payment processor) cut their line and the site could no longer accept donations while it hosted cub material.

I don't really have any viewpoint on it from a moral standpoint. I don't really care what people like to jerk off to. I DO care what keeps the most users/prospective future users happy, though, as i want this site to succeed. I really wish someone representing the site staff would weigh in on this, but as far as i know they're rewriting their Code of Conduct and Acceptable Use policies, and won't come out with anything firm until then.

your twitter feed isn't anything to go by. People tend to associate with like-minded people on social media.

It's not for the sake of the site, it's to avoid enforcing propper tagging on pictures so that people who wish to filter out certain themes can do so effectively.

They are not banning rape, snuff, gore, blood ext... yet those all have the same implications as cub porn.

I have a number of friends in countries where even drawn depictions of underage sex is illegal and they would be unable to use this site, for the sake of a minority.

It's funny that one of the reasonings for this was that cub lovers are a minority. XD

They claim they are but I'd say it's a vast majority.

The number of users who will leave because of moral outrage is probably very small. This site looks to be the best website for furry art amongst the available choices, and because of the tag blocking tool, I imagine most will be satisfied.

If it wasn't such a great website already, if it was Just Another FA Clone, then things would probably be different, but so far this site has the best features and best development team of all the available choices and I think that is going to matter most to the majority of users.

Nice to see the issue have already been dealt with, sort of.

Cub Porn will not be removed. People will just be required to tag their stuff correctly and people required to use the blacklist feature, just as things should be.

You do yours, I do mine.

I'd prefer if this site remained inclusive. Banning stuff that we don't like and find morally wrong isn't going to get us anywhere.

Also, if we're going to ban cub because it's a depiction of an illegal act, why aren't we banning rape? Gore/Snuff? Bestiality? If you don't like something that's allowed on here, you don't have to use the site. You HAVE options.

On top of it being a legal grey area (or simply illegal in areas), FA previously suffered legal action due to it, and it's not worth keeping the risk of legal action for cub content. On top of that, personally, it's a matter of comfort- looking around on sites like twitter and other sites it's not hard ot find artists unwilling to set up on FN due to the tolerence of cub content.
There's also the whole argument Deishido brought up which I heavily agree with, and should be good enough reason on it's own.

Personally I'd opt towards banning it mainly because of all the legal hangups and grey areas outside the US. I wouldn't have said this in, say, 2006, but Inkbunny's a thing. There's an established, quite successful art site for the cub stuff out there. Y'all wouldn't be alienating anyone too badly.

All in all I agree with Tartii. Fictional or not Cub PORN = Child Porn.

People can have their cub images in safe G/PG settings but the moment it crosses the threshold of adult content such as sex/rape it should NOT be posted. Go to Inkbunny with it and have fun hiding from the US Feds.

CP shouldn't be allowed on this site. Not only will it give FN a bad name, but a lot of people will be at risk of jail time in the USA just for being on the site and ACCIDENTALLY looking at it. End of story. I don't care about what other countries allow or what individual states allow. This website is based in the US and can be subjected to US federal regulations.

I'm against censorship, but the truth is i could get thrown in jail if some cop or TSA agent decided to search my phone, opened up my browser and found cub porn on my feed because some idiot forgot to tag it on FN and the mods haven't found it yet. My personal safety and freedom is more important to me than my feelings towards censorship. I admire the idealism behind the anti-censorship argument, but the reality is that furry porn is already viewed as deviant and allowing cub porn is just asking for legal trouble and putting its users at risk as well. There are other sites that allow cub porn--it's not like FN would be banning cub porn from the internet. Please ban it from FN, I don't trust users to tag it appropriately and I don't trust moderators to catch untagged works 100% of the time.

I'd like to throw my 2 cents in.

Artists draw animal dicks. Sooner or later, laws will come out to ban cartoons of animal dicks, and then we're all screwed.

Now me, personally, am not a fan of cub porn. But I am not one to judge someone's interests.

Now let me list more things that is illegal in real life, that artists draw:

- Rape

- Murder

- Drug use

- Kidnapping

- Terrorism!

Just to name a few. So why single out just cub porn?

Mainly because it is the most immoral stuff that is drawn so far in the fandom and it is a stereotype in the fandom. Yes Rape, Murder, Drug use, kidnapping, terrorism is bad. Those are possibly the lowest drawn and plus if you want to draw your character doing drugs. Some don't care because you are messing yourself up. Not someone else including little kids.

OK so if Cub is bad but snuff is ok I can fuck and kill whoever I want so long as it's not a cub? Sweet!

If rape, snuff, torture and other things are ok in art cub is too.

Rape is bad and so is murder. I am just going by what is mostly drawn in the fandom. You don't really see terrorism art in the fandom and rape is extremely rare. It is wrong but enough people know to not do that stuff. Cub Porn is more noticed than that stuff.

Ah, okay. So it's because it's "drawn more" in the fandom. That's the reason it should be banned.

Are you telling me is less immoral getting turned on with images of forced sex/torture (rape)?

I said that Rape is bad.

It is down to the submitter to publish the correct tags.

It is also the responsibility of moderators to take action of reported submissions that fail to meet that criteria.

If a user continuously chooses to single out "cub" or "cub porn" in their tags, then it's as simple as a ban.

I'm sure "accurate tagging" is published somewhere in their policy.

Preeeeeeety sure that's a matter of opinion. I've seen rape/torture/snuff art that's LEAGUES more "immoral" than a small nude animal... just saying...

I agree it should be banned. Unlike non-consent, homosexuality, gore, etc, cub art has a history of causing legal issues with sites and owners of such art.

FA had to ban it because it was preventing them from getting ad revenue, Inkbunny is banned in some areas due to cub-porn.

It's something that has to be done if we want FurryNetwork to be the most accessible it can be.

Just add tag blacklisting.

Community tagging and blacklisting will work since FN has mods they can just enforce tagging

It's already in polace, they just don't want to do the massive amount of work required to enforce it.

If you allow cub it will just be another IB, if you ban it, it'll just be another FA. Take your pic. Blacklisting tags is what will make this site viably another successful site that allows cub but dosen't force you to see it. Sort of like SoFurry and actually the way IB runs now.

I completely agree because if you ban cub art people wont be satisfied they will try to ban babyfur art and such you cant please everyone the only way would be for the community to just blacklist it and you wont see it.

I wouldn't. A kid in a diaper is way different to me than a kid getting banged by the babysitter.

Maybe not you but some people then others will complain about other forms of art this will lead to everyone threatening to leave FN unless they get their way.

Ever consider that nations like Germany ban sites that have CP? What are you gonna tell any Germans who wanna make an account here but cant because someone just HAD to have that art here?

"Just another IB", That remains to be seen. Inkbunny seems to me the go-to place for stuff which is not allowed on FA, which is mostly really terrible art of questionable moral content.

FN is poised to be a replacement for FA. If that happens the majority of content will be higher quality and of other subjects besides raping cubs and diapers and what-not. So I dont agree that it would turn into "Just another IB".

Personally, I feel that's what blacklist features are for. The user should have the option to remove whatever they don't like but if the site itself bans a certain type of art then I will not participate in the website. I left FurAffinity because of this and only had an account due to all the different artists there. This would be a deal breaker for me and cub porn isn't a fetish of mine at all. All forms of art should be allowed and I feel it's unfair to deny one thing but not another.

If the site does change it's rules to just ban this outright, I'm going back to SoFurry since it has a ton of features already and is still updating to this day.

It makes me sad how intolerant people are of others here... I don't want to be part of a site with users that so heavily desire a certain group to be removed outright.

please don't keep Cub porn on this site. Just please don't

leave Inkbunny for the cubs. Let the adults have Furry network

Or you can go back to the rotting husk that's FA.

I agree with banning CP. I am on the fence now about wanting to put any effort into this site now that I see it's allowed atm. Yeah, sure, I can blacklist it.... but its being associated with it that I don't want. Just putting my two cents in.... hoping that the admins consider removing CP from Furry Network. Honestly, I was very impressed with this site and was hoping to make it a number one gallery.

also. If you are trying to be taken seriously as a furry community. cub porn can tarnish that rather quick

if you're trying to be taken seriously as an art gallery website, censorship can tarnish that rather quick.

Has FN ever asked a lawyer about this issue?

This is Pandora's Box. This content is straight up illegal to even view in a lot of developed countries. It's not a question of censoring distasteful content - it's a question of legal jeopardy to both users of the site and FN.

Is FN liable when its moderators fail to tag something that's problematic? Is FN liable when a moderator views content that is illegal to view in the moderator's jurisdiction as part of that moderator's official duties? Assuming that FN is US-based, what happens when a prosecutor gets interested in something going on here from any of the 50+ separate jurisdictions with overlapping laws (this is why legal grey areas are not safe places to be in the US)?

The fact that a lot of other sites out there ignore these questions and just host this stuff anyway doesn't make it wise to dismiss this stuff, but rather just means those sites are incompetently managed and potentially put their users at risk.

It's a question of censorship. If people cna't legally view a website then they are solely responsible for viewing that website.

You're talking about inconveniencing the majority of furry fans who live in America because of the problems of a minority who live in more oppressive countries. That doesn't seem fair to me.

Cubs are considered "children" in a way. Making "cub porn" technically "child porn" and that's very illegal. Such things shouldn't be allowed anywhere honestly. So I'm all for having this removed. According to some people on this thread, that makes me a fascist asshole, well I've got news for you. Hell yes am I an asshole!

However, at least I'm an asshole with proper morals, and as for being a fascist? Well I'm not too knowledgeable about politics to fully understand that term. Yet it seems like people are saying it's someone who thinks everyone should think like them. That's not cool, I think everyone should think for themselves, and do what they believe is right! Like what I'm doing right now. I'm standing against cub porn because that's what I believe is right. If that makes me a bad person in your eyes, well that's your problem not mine, so just learn to deal with it. : )

That's all I've got to say on the matter. Tartii you've got my support. Cheers mate.

- Eloediel

The legality depends on the courts, and courts have ruled that drawn artwork is not child porn.

That really depends where you're from as it's not legal in many countries

Deishido hit the nail on the head, cub porn and drawn CP can be used for grooming children by sexual predators, even if some cub porn artists intentions are innocent, that doesn't stop actual predators from using their art for grooming and making the child feel this is okay because the cute animal/cartoon child is doing it.

Rapists don't use rape art to groom rape victims because well a big part of being raped is not consenting to it. :U I mean you might make an argument that someone shows a rape/sexual abuse victim rape art to show them what happened to them is totally cool/normal/sexy but I feel like that's stretching it a bit (and note I personally am not fond of noncon/rape art but unless it's actually increasing rape victims then I don't know what argument you can have for it's ban unlike drawn CP which has been used in grooming).

Guro/gore art isn't used to groom murder victims to want to be murdered or dismembered.

Either way stay on topic, stop trying to compare Drawn CP/Cub porn to other morally sketchy art because that's not what this thread is about. Lots of Errors in Comparison fallacy going all around. Rather than saying "well if you think drawn CP should be banned why aren't you against x,y,z porn?" (and you're assuming they aren't because it isn't stated) vs defend why you think drawn CP/cub porn SHOULDN'T be banned from FN. You're trying to bring up a red herring and it's pretty petty.

...Really? You basically repeated the same flimsy argument three times, but for cub suddenly treated it like it were legitimate. In that same regard violent video games train people to be killers, fighting games train people in hand to hand combat, self help tapes/videos actually improve people's lives, etc...

Maybe you should set your biases aside before trying to make an arguement.

Nations like Germany have banned stuff kike this. And to insinuate that it is not a modern nation is completely offensive and preposterous. You want this art so bad, go to inkbunny. But CP MUST be banned here!

I won't even though the is it wrong or right, folks higher up have made valid points on both sides better than I have.

I will say, at the end of the day is becomes more of a risk to the site than any sort of benefit. Give more users access to a site they don't have to worry about the legality in their country

I don't want to risk issues with hosting my own art on a site that allows artwork with minors in adult situations, regardless of fantasy settings. If it's not banned, I'm not going to stick around.

I figured that I should say something about this as well. I'm not into cub porn and those who are should see it as pedophile related art because it is. I don't care how someone tries to defend it but what I don't like is how people are just attacking cub porn and not anything else.

Just about ALL over the world owning gay art/porn or just being gay will get you jail time or depending on the country, death. EVEN in America being gay is very looked down on but one little community is fine with it. I don't like gay art. I fucking hate it and how its everywhere in the furry community but I don't see people complaining about how the rest of the world hate homosexuals and furries in general. How would you all like it IF I or anyone else opened up a furry site and banned ALL gay porn from being posted because of the people who don't like looking at it? I'm sure you all would have something to say about. What if my excuse was "I don't want another FA", making it seem like it is somehow a bad thing?

What about all the other shit people post like Rape, Gore, Blood, Drug Abuse, hateful imagery, or other related things that are just as illegal as cub porn. I don't know why people feel the need to 'protect the kids' but no one is trying to fuck your child. Yes, cub porn shouldn't be posted here because in America, it will get you jail time, even if its not real but if we are going to ban cub/child porn (lets be real, it is), then we need to ban ALL other porn that's not normal (christian) or straight. Lets see how long this site last if that happens.

This is a form of censorship and I hate censorship. People should be able to express themselves and not worry about being punished for it since most people here are into illegal things. No one chooses to like the fetish they have so don't sit here and act as if you are somehow better because your illegal fetish is more popular than someone elses illegal fetish.

We've been here before, and the conversation has always gone down the same way:

One side is against it, and uses false equivalence and special pleading to argue why this one and only thing cannot be allowed under any circumstances, ignoring how if you applied this same logic to literally anything else, people would rightfully call you a busybody moralizing dick for it (e.g. violent video games, D&D, string bikinis at the public pool, and so on and so forth) Let's not even get into the topic of how porn itself is ethically questionable and has debased the community, nooooooo, we might actually have to use logic instead of emotions.

The other side is for it, and thump their chests over the necessity of free speech and the evils of censorship, and always end up a hop, skip and a jump from Godwinning. They might be right...half-way so, but anyone who doesn't realize that this is a sticky undersized hill to die on is someone I really don't want to talk to.

To put it simply, both sides are assholes, and I want you both to shut up. I am so tired of this.

And to those people who keep saying that there are people refusing to come here because of the issue, I got something shocking for you: I don't care. This is the furry fandom we are talking about. People will refuse to use a site because the header is the wrong color. This is the community where half of the largest site on the web are always threatening to quit for one reason or another, every other month, and it is still there. I guarantee you, this latest kerfuffle will do absolutely nothing to it. You're not as important as you think you are! I would like to know where the hell they were when an actual accused rapist was being protected by the staff of that site, or how a convicted sex criminal is on the staff of that site, but I suppose that's alright so long as imaginary children weren't involved.

And about the financials, let's all be honest here: we mean PayPal. I got fucking news for you: PayPal doesn't like porn period. Many commission artists have had their accounts locked because they were using it to sell adult artwork. PayPal is a moralizing, pontificating bully who will happily steal your money just because you happened to draw a dick, no matter the supposed age of the character that dick was attached to. Their policies are not relevant to this discussion.

So, for all the pushy bullies here trying to muster up their bandwagon, here is where the bandwagon is really going: the majority of users do not care! You might drag in your anecdotes about who and such I never heard of before will refuse to use the site for such and whatever, but the vast majority of users will not care. They won't even notice. If they see something they don't like, they can block it. I know: I have already blocked a handful of tags which I wish desperately I could use on FA. If you can't do that, I'm sorry, you're given up the privilege of being considered a mature person by me, and by anyone who wants to approach this topic seriously.

In short, take your crusades, and shove them up your ass. Considering who I am talking to, you all would probably still have room to spare. You have no business lecturing anyone about propriety.

I'm normally one to say "hey, as long as it's not illegal, and it's not being shoved in my face, go for it. As long as you are jerking off to cub and not actually going out and abusing children, I have no issue."

But, this is BECOMING too much of an issue right now. FurryNetwork has the potential to become everything the Furry Fandom needs it to be: a safe and secure, convenient website to hold artwork galleries and community interactions with modern features and staff that cares about it's users. It has the potential to become the face of the Furry Fandom in a way Furaffinity never could. Because of that, it is crucial to make sure that this website is as safe as possible for as many people as possible. Cub porn, regardless of it's legality in the USA, is still ILLEGAL in many other countries, not just to make/distribute, but also to view. It is considered child pornography, and allowing it on the site could result in people getting in to trouble further down the line. Yes, you could block the tags, but how often do people actually tag properly on sites like this unless it has a user-run "tag what you see" system? And are the staff going to be able to keep an eye on every single submission to make sure that if a piece of cub porn gets through the cracks that they can instantly put the tags on it?

No. I'm sorry to all the people who indulge exclusively in cub porn, but if that's your only reason for being here then you need to go somewhere else. There are plenty of furry websites out there that allow this sort of thing, so FurryNetwork doesn't need to become another.

If cub porn is just something that you enjoy then you can still benefit massively from FN despite not having access to that sort of material, but if you are in the Furry Fandom for no reason other than to jerk it to depictions of little kids being fucked then you are, in my honest opinion, part of what causes this fandom to have such a horrible reputation outside this community, and I'd feel much safer on FN knowing that the number of people like that is kept to an absolute minimum.

I want FN to become a community that showcases everything that makes the Furry Fandom great, not another borderline dark-web fetish site like e621.

So while I support your right to view cub porn as long as it is legal in your jurisdiction, I do not support it being on this site.

Tartii, you have my full support. I hope the FN staff changes their UAP in the favor of this cause.

Why can't we at least TRY the idea that we blacklist the extreme stuff people are uncomfortable with by default and still allow it to exist. It is not like banning it will get rid of cub porn from the internet.

What I want to see something between all other furry sites and inkbunny. Inkbunny is the only furry site to allow cub and because of that it is flooded with the stuff.

I don't want to see Furry Network ban anything so long as it is art and all participants in creating the piece are adults. At the same time I don't want Furry Network to become like Inkbunny to where because of people who draw cub supporting the site and people who don't avoiding it becomes all cub.

I am just tired of being stuck with inkbunny where I dislike most of the content just because its the only place that allows stuff that looks subjectively underaged.

Why? No, seriously, why? No one ever asks this question. They are either immediately yes or no and then get entrenched by motivated reasoning.

Is it because you think it is immoral? There are a lot of immoral things presented in artwork (drug use, murder, prostitution, public lewdness, etc,) but there is no serious majority of people suggesting we ban those things.

Is it because it is illegal is some places? Take that line of logic to it's conclusion and we shouldn't be uploading anything. We shouldn't be on the internet. Furry itself can be considered a form of bestiality, and if you think the law won't try that, one of the reason's why the Comic Book Defense Fund exists is because prosecutors were trying to charge people with bestiality over Omaha the Cat Dancer. Furry porn is still technically illegal in my state. Should we acquiesce to them?

Is it because you think it encourages that kind of behavior? Will you say the same about violent video games and media? We've been down that road before. We've rejected it for the transparent bullshit that it was.

Is it because it will be harder for the site to get finances? PayPal doesn't like adult art at all. Thousands of furry, and not even just furry, artists break that rule with contemptuous frequency, and some have been punished for it. We already walk that line period.

is it because you think people will refuse to use the site? 1.) Of course they will. For any number of reasons. Furries are funny like that. 2.) The largest furry site on the net is always being boycotted for some reason or another. It has not put a dent in that site's dominance, and the boycotters, with few exceptions, always come crawling back to it. If you think we ought to be impressed by the moral sacrifices of those people, you haven't been in this community very long.

I can't see a logical reason to ban cub art. There are only emotional arguments, and emotional arguments are not valid.

There's a difference that people don't seem to realize. There's cub art and then there's pornographic cub art. Cub art, sure that's fine, post til your hearts content. However the pornographic variant.... though it's not real, it still could be classified as child pornography. Which is illegal in the usa, and some other countries. However since it's not illegal in others, it makes it hard to say for sure if it should be posted.

Most people will agree that child porn is disturbing. So unless the characters being drawn are at least of age but look young, then I don't think it should be allowed here. Furries already have a bad enough rep as it is, and yes this will always be a moral debate, until the whole world bans child porn.

In some states in America, you can get in some serious hot water for even being affiliated with a site that says they allow pornographic content such as that.